How Arizona Pastors From Different Generations Approach The Fight Against Racism

By Steve Goldstein
Published: Tuesday, June 9, 2020 - 2:01pm
Updated: Wednesday, June 24, 2020 - 12:06pm

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Protesters on First Avenue
Blake Benard/Special for Cronkite News
Protesters on First Avenue in downtown Phoenix on June 1, 2020.

STEVE GOLDSTEIN: The rallies and protests over police violence that were sparked by the killing of George Floyd in Minneapolis have included people of extremely varied backgrounds. That description would also apply to the organizers when it comes to their ages and positions of leadership. In troubled times, whether they're faced by individuals or the broader communities, many will turn to religious and spiritual leaders, and the current rallies are no different. It's for that reason we arranged a conversation with two of the Valley's African American religious leaders. One, Benjamin Thomas Sr. came to Phoenix nearly 30 years ago. He is senior pastor at Tanner AME Church. The other is Warren Stewart Jr. He's founder and lead pastor of the Church of the Remnant and son of another influential pastor, Warren's Stewart Sr., who is one of the leaders in the effort to bring a voter-approved Martin Luther King Jr. holiday to Arizona. And Pastor Stewart, let me start with you. What are you hearing from congregants right now? What are their expectations from spiritual leaders like you in a time like this?

→ Arizona Voices: Race, Diversity And The Black Lives Matter Movement

WARREN STEWART JR.: People are asking, "What do we do next?" And, you know, I'm calling for diversity and unity between white churches and Hispanic churches and making sure that we are all on a united front, and that those in the white churches that have influence would call out systemic racism as sin as, as an injustice and confront the systems that perpetuate it. And even if those systems are themselves, their circle of influence in their own churches, what I'm hearing from everyone is that we need some progress. And not only that, not just the protests, not just having prayer gatherings, but the fact that we need a call to action. And the black church, of course, has been at the epicenter of civil rights issues since they began. And so for us, that, that is our identity. And so we do need, we are taking the lead, and our brothers and sisters of all faiths are joining with us — or even no faith. Something about this situation woke them up louder than they ever have been before.

GOLDSTEIN: Pastor Thomas, let me ask you, what are expectations for a religious leader, a spiritual leader such as yourself when it comes to trying to deal with and improve this kind of situation?

BENJAMIN THOMAS SR.: Our role as spiritual leaders is to be a rallying point for people in our congregations, in our communities to hear a word of hope, to be able to express that hurt, that anger and be okay with expressing it. But also hope for a solution, an answer. We've been dealing with this for years. And I looked at what Dr. King said, and around 1967, he said in the final analysis, a riot or protest is the language of the unheard. And what that says to us is that we're crying out. But through the years, we felt we haven't been heard. Our role is to help rally people, encourage people, pray with people. And as Pastor Stewart said, bring as many people into the circle as possible to have dialogue and discussion. And now we need to take action. We did — to protest is great, but we need some action. We need to see if something good is going to come out of this.

GOLDSTEIN: Is there a dynamic difference there between those who have lived it for 60, 70 years as opposed to one who may have lived it for 30 or 40? Is the approach going to be different based on that?

THOMAS SR.: My prayer is, and I'm glad you got two different generations on, that we come together. We were out with the protest. They were calling me "O.G." — old gentleman. And that, that we come together with our wisdom, but also the youth come together with their enthusiasm, their creativity. They, they've got more of a technology swagger. And we've got to hear them. We've got to hear their hurt, and we've got to be able to guide them through that with our wisdom. But the, the youth now, they ain't gonna wait like we waited. They want action now. And if they don't get that action now, they gonna take it on their own. And as, as seniors, we've got to be willing in this generation to speak truth to power and the generation that follows us.

STEWART JR.: As a child, you know, I grew up on the Capitol lawn with my dad fighting for the King holiday, to be a paid, state holiday. I learned from the older generation. They, they've poured into me. I stand on their shoulders and I want to honor them moving forward and also be a buffer between them and the younger generation who don't wait, who have social media, who have access in the information age to just go out and do what they want, send a text message and say, "Meet us here and we're protesting." The information is dispersed so fast while they're complaining, "Well, the older generation is not doing anything." To bring both generations together, that is why my voice and my influence, you know, I'm thankful and humbled to have it, but I want to see us all working together. When we can do that, we will harness power and influence to really bring about change and a call to action.

GOLDSTEIN: Well, Pastor Stewart, briefly, I want to have you say, respond to one thing that Pastor Thomas said. Do you think there's reason for optimism, whether it comes to the generations coming together? Or do you think there is going to be, are there going to be separate paths?

STEWART JR.: Black America, America period, saw a public execution, as my dad said. We saw public murder. And I have a friend who was in seminary with me, but his friend in Minneapolis record — is the one who recorded the video.

GOLDSTEIN: Oh, wow.

STEWART JR.: And he is distraught right now. And just the trauma of the person that recorded it is going through, his own mental health, you know, challenges in putting it on social media. I don't think it's a challenge because it, it did unite us so fast because we heard, "I can't breathe." We saw this man's life leave him, and it hit differently. I, I was, we were all in a meeting, and Pastor Thomas was there and my dad. We were in a meeting with the governor, and I was very angry and my angst — I felt like he wasn't understanding it and I was overwhelmed with emotion. And then I wept at the end of the meeting because I couldn't take it, because I have teenage sons and I know he wasn't a teenager, but I fear for their life and their engagement with the police. So I think it covered the generational gap and brought us together. And so it woke up the entire generations to say, "This is, we have to move now."

GOLDSTEIN: Pastor Thomas, I've got to ask you because Pastor Stewart referenced the meeting with Gov. Ducey. Do you think people of leadership in this state who are not people of color understand the message or do they just sort of say pat phrases and say, "Yes, yes, we'll do our best?"

THOMAS SR.: We cannot protest today, go home tomorrow and still have another George Floyd two months or a year from now. I think that there are some in power who understand. I think there are those who have lived it so long, they don't care to understand. They aren't empathetic to what's happening in the lives of people. I feel that there are leaders, if they would but listen, they are the ones, and the only ones, who have the power that can help us out of what we're going to do. I think in the conversation we had with the governor was an opportunity to release Arizona. And our comments that we shared from its hurt helped relieve us of some of our tears. To see that there, that our leaders share with us, that "I may not understand what you're going through, but I believe this is wrong. I believe it sent the wrong message to America. And I would not tolerate it." That voice alone will begin to change the conversation for the state of Arizona.

STEWART JR.: I challenge the governor to be courageous and to call out systemic racism, to feel and empathize with the pain that we have and the trauma that we get triggered when we see black people killed. I mean, we have to give white people, other people, history lessons every time this happens. And it's, and it's like how many... Governor, how many listening sessions do you have to have? American history is a thwarted view of actual history in America. We are tired of having to give America history lessons and then we get triggered and then it is inherent, inherited trauma. And all we're saying is, "Can you diversify your staff?" And I asked him to diversify his staff to look like the demographics. That's the change I'm talking about, to call out systemic racism and say, and not be so loyal to your political party in times like this, because politics is dividing us and humanity should unite us.

GOLDSTEIN: Based on what you experience with your dad, and what your dad saw of general government leadership, is reason to have confidence in someone like Gov. Ducey, Sheriff Penzone, folks like this, or do they not quite get it because of the color of their skin?

STEWART JR.: They, they don't get it, and it's not just because of the color of their skin. They don't get it because they are in positions of power and don't want to ruffle any feathers. They, they don't want to be politically incorrect. And justice says you have to be politically incorrect. Justice is the correct answer to politics. And when you see oppression — and I've been on Penzone, I'm on Penzone's African American board, and I was frustrated and left. I've been on Gov. Ducey's Child Safety and Family Empowerment. These are nothing but listening sessions, and we need real change. Every board I've been on, the disparities for black people have been the same conversation that my father has been having. That's what's so traumatic for us, is that we're having the same conversation with no real results. Change has to come in forms of economic change and equitable change where we're on boards and they're diverse. That's where the change begins to happen, where we get plate — places of, positions of leadership in places of power, because racism is prejudice plus power. And the system is bent against people of color making real progress economically and equitably.

GOLDSTEIN: That is Warren Stewart Jr., founder and lead pastor of the Church of the Remnant. Also with us, Reverend Benjamin Thomas Sr., who is senior pastor of Tanner AME Church here in the Valley. Gentlemen, thank you both so much for the conversation. And stay well.

STEWART JR.: Thank you.

THOMAS SR.: Thank you. God bless.

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