By most indications — TV ratings and attendance at games among them — football is as popular as ever in the U.S.

But, according to new reporting from The Washington Post, the game is undergoing a dramatic demographic shift. There are fewer kids playing tackle football, but those drops are not uniform among different racial groups, geographic areas and socio-economic levels.

There have also been efforts at the state level to ban some kids from playing tackle football; California Gov. Gavin Newsom this week said he’d veto a bill in that state that banned tackle football for kids younger than 12.

Dave Sheinin, a sports reporter for the Washington Post, was one of the reporters on this series of stories. He joined The Show to discuss the issue.

MARK BRODIE: David, one of the pieces you describe a steep steady decline in the number of high school football players nationwide, but it seems like it's not so much a question of how many kids are playing tackle football, but rather who is playing tackle football.

DAVE SHEININ: I think that's correct. The story of youth football participation falling is kind of an old story. This has been going on for maybe 15 years or so, and it's measurable at the youth and high school levels. But I think what's new about this project and what we found is that, that decline, which has been more or less across the board in the U.S. has not been uniform, and it's been, you know, it is falling on different communities, different demographics, and it's sort of dividing the country in many ways into places where they play football in large numbers and places where they abandon it in large numbers. And so it's, it's created some very stark dichotomies across the country.

BRODIE: Well, and what's interesting is it seems like based on your reporting that in many ways the divisions are based on political differences and socio-economic status.

SHEININ: Yeah, that's, that's right. And in that regard, we were fortunate that in 2012, the Washington Post, we have our own polling department and they commissioned a poll that among other things asked people, Americans, their attitudes toward children playing youth football. And that was in 2012. So we were able to replicate those questions and ask a new pool of participants their own views on children participating in youth football. And we could compare the two and a lot of the numbers were the same. A lot of the data were very much unchanged, but there was a massive divergence between 2012 and 2023 in political orientation and how those different groups viewed kids playing football. So white liberals, you know, were roughly not very far off from conservatives in terms of how they viewed the sport in 2012. But in 2023, there was a vast divergence, 30 or 40 points percentage point difference in their attitudes towards kids playing youth football. So it really showed, you know, something that is detectable in all phases of American life. Now, this this political divide in all things, cultural and societal.

BRODIE: And interestingly, you also found it seems that in many places, Black students, Hispanic students, lower income students were more likely to be playing than their white counterparts or their more affluent counterparts. Right.

SHEININ: Yeah, in many cases that that didn't stand up all the way across the board, There are certainly pockets of the South, for example, where you, you know, affluent white kids are, are still playing football in huge numbers. So there's very much a cultural component to this as well. But in general, you are finding that, you know, the the sport is more now than ever the domain of, you know, historically oppressed minorities for whom the risk reward calculus sort of still tilts in the direction of playing. And also, you know, white conservatives where in places especially in the South where football is the unquestioned king of the fall. And also where, you know, it's seen as being part of a America, being, being part of being American is, is playing football. And I think that there's components there of the way that the NFL and the football industry has aligned itself with the military and patriotism. So there, there's a lot of very fascinating, you know, dynamics at work here.

BRODIE: For families who have kids who, who don't play tackle football or who are encouraging their, their kids not to play tackle football, how much is the risk of concussions and brain damage playing into that?

SHEININ: Well, you know, it's, it's difficult to say, of course, but I mean, there, there are a lot of factors contributing to the decline in participation and, and some of those factors are not specific to football. You know, they involve things like the specialization in sports, especially sports like baseball, soccer and basketball. But there's also, you know, universal forces, you know, working against kids that, that want to keep them on their devices and keep them, you know, linked in the video games and whatnot. So there's a lot of factors but the one thing that's different about football is that it is inherently dangerous, the act of playing the sport, even without the massive hits that you see that you could see in a sport like soccer or lacrosse or hockey, the inherent every single play of football is dangerous and that's the difference.

BRODIE: Yeah. Well, so then what do folks say about the future of high school football? Like, it's almost unimaginable, at least in some parts of the country to think that, you know, Friday Night Lights would not be a thing anymore. But it seems like based on your reporting that there are some people who are envisioning that kind of future.

SHEININ: Yeah. There are no shortage of people who, who foresee that. I don't know that that happens in our lifetimes. I just, you know, we just don't know, I do think though that,, you know, youth football, youth tackle football, talking about kids under the age of, let's say 12 or maybe 14, I do think that could go away in our lifetimes. And I do think that there's a distinct possibility, you know, in, in five or 10 years, we may see no more youth football for the youngest kids.

BRODIE: Well, so what does all of that mean along with the increased popularity of flag football, including coming to the Olympics, for the next summer games? What does all that mean for college football and the NFL? We should also mention that ratings for those games in attendance is still really, really high.

SHEININ: Absolutely. I think that, you know, we're a long, long way if ever towards, you know, college football and the NFL going away. You know, the NFL has embraced flag football to a startling degree in the last say, five or 10 years. And I think that that is largely a function of them, understanding that the participation rates are going down, continue to go down, and they see flag as a new pathway into the game. And their hope for sure is that those kids who are introduced to the game via flag eventually convert into tackle football players when they reach high school age or whatever age that is. And even if they don't, you know, the NFL is creating new fans, a new pipeline for fans and they're also bringing women and girls into the sport via flag. And so, you know, it, it really is a brilliant way for the NFL to keep their pipeline full. I do think though, that we're gonna, you know, what's gonna be crucial is seeing the first deep statistical studies that, that tell us whether those flag kids are converting into tackle players as teenagers and high schoolers.

BRODIE: Sure. Interesting. All right, that is Dave Shin in with the Washington Post. Dave, nice to talk to you. Thank you.

SHEININ: Thank you very much.

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